Women Singer-Songwriters of 1970s Japan - Transcript

Duration of the podcast: 28:04

Interviewer: S

Interviewee: L

 

[00:00:01]

This is the Nordic Asia podcast.

 

[00:00:11]

S: Welcome to the Nordic Asia podcast, a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic.

My name is Satoko Naito and I’m a docent at the centre for East Asian Studies at the University of Turku in Finland. It's my great pleasure to welcome Dr Lasse Lehtonen, who is a post-doctoral researcher at the University of Tokyo. He has kindly agreed to speak with us today about his current research on women singer-songwriters from the 1970s and 80s Japan and ? to the feminist movements ?. So thanks very much for joining us today Lasse.

 

[00:00:50]

L: Thank you very much for the invitation.

 

S: Before we get to your current research which I’m really excited to learn more about, I was fascinated to hear that your dissertation topic at the University of Helsinki for your PhD was actually on nationalism and Japanese composers of the 1930s. So first I though that you know this is very far away from your current topic but then I realise that probably this is not true and there is some significant theoretical overlaps.

 

[00:01:23]

S: Can you share with us how you arrived at your current topic and what such common traits would be?

 

L: Yes, sure. I mean obviously we are talking about the very, very different music because my current research project deals with popular music in the 1970s and my dissertation was about what could be said Western art music or classical music by Japanese composers. As you probably know, if we've think about the 1930s the years leading to the Pacific war it was very turbulent times for Japanese society with the rise of militarism and nationalism.

 

[00:02:00]

L: And these topics are something that had been approached and studied from quite many different viewpoints but not that match from the viewpoint of music. So, I was kind of interested in understanding whether composers, Japanese composers of this time also expressed this nationalist discourses in their musical works and the in their writings which I also studied

 

[00:2:26]

L: And then on the other hand musicological research on ? by Japanese composers have been focused on post-war music and composers so I was also interested in knowing in general what kind of music was composed in Japan at this time. So basically I had these two connections it was the music analysis and the musicological side and then this social discourse and music as a social discourse which is I would say an overlap with my current research project as well.

 

[00:03:02]

S: Right. When you talk about the composers, of course these are composers of instrumental music, orchestral music, is that right?

 

L: Mostly yeah. Instrumental, orchestral, solo piano songs and so forth. Something to be performed before the concert hall.

 

[00:03:35]

Ok and then you move on for your current research on 1970s and 80s female singer-songwriters, is that right?

L: Yeah that’s correct.

 

S: Yeah ok, so why that era and why those specific artists can you tell us why they are worth studying in your opinion?

 

[00:04:18]

L: Yeah I mean, well the reason for me to originally get interested in them was that I was just kind of fond off listening to music of this time. But I'm was personally interested before but then I noticed something quite interesting which is basically in the history of modern popular music in Japan there were very very little women, or there was very little music written by women I mean composed why women and songs with lyrics written by women.

 

[00:04:53]

L: Whereas suddenly in the 1970s we see this great rise in women singer-songwriters so obviously we're talking about musicians who wrote their own music. So this made me wonder what kinds of impacts they had on Japanese popular music from the gender point of view. So I mean as women singer-songwriters were there able to bring new voices, are the voices of women in Japanese popular music.

 

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L: So what’s very interesting here is that simultaneously the right of these female singer-songwriters also coincide with the rise of feminism and large-scale feminist movements in Japan. I mean there had been feminist movements before but this meant the rise of new movement called women's liberation movement. I just found this kind of connection very very interesting. Why did this happen in the 1970s and was there perhaps some kind of connection. So that's how I got interested in studying this topic.

 

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S: So maybe it's a little early as this is ongoing research for you so it may be too early to pose this question but are these just synchronous or did one cause the other or factor to the other?

 

L: I would say that yes although the musicians I study by the way, whom I for example refer to are Matsutoe Yumi and Nakajima Miyuki and Takeuchi Mariya who all very well-known and popular female artist even today.

 

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L: So, basically they did not incorporate overly feminist messages into the songs but I would say that because different fields of culture and popular culture in Japan at the time saw the same kind of phenomenon. So, for example, there were more women becoming involved with the media and producing popular culture. I would say that music was kind of reflecting and also constructing these new values in Japan.

 

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L: Obviously that's something that is a little bit difficult to point out how it actually happened but the connection surely des exist there.

 

S: Sure. When you say different kinds of media, women's involvement, in different kinds of media what are you talking about specifically?

 

L: For example, certain feminist I mean I'm reciting feminist research by Japanese media scholars but they have noted that from the mid-1970s onward, more and more women became involved for example with the production of television dramas and obviously girl’s manga although that was also before than mid-1970s.

 

[00:07:48]

L: And for example, fiction that was marketed specifically for a women and so forth.

 

S: I see. So not just on the side of production but also intended consumption and then also is there representation in the media?

 

L: Yeah, exactly, that's actually the main point. So, for example, many feminist media scholars in Japan have noted that at the latter half of the 1970s for example women's magazines began to disseminate images of women as individuals whereas before that women were more portrayed as – well, wives and mothers and lovers.

 

[00:08:37]

L: So we kind of changed that the image of women in the larger media discourse and then of course for the women who consumed these magazines so these magazines and other media based on these kind of previous research they gave new models for identification for women in Japan at the time.

 

S: I see. Turning to the kind of approach that you take in your current research so you mention earlier when you were working on your dissertation of the composers of the 1930s of course if it's instrumental there are no lyrics you studied but obviously with singer-songwriters, there are lyrics that you can analyse from their songs and particularly if they were singer-songwriters they produced their own songs and perform their own songs. I understand there would be these kinds of texts to study but how are you analysing them? What sources are you focused on?

 

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L: Yeah. I mean lyrics as I said a moment ago although they did not all this artist did not really incorporate explicit feminist messages to their songs, I think the lyrics first of all reflected the same phenomenon that I just described that was enlarging in Japanese media at that time. Now in addition to that I'm also studying their sound because as gender studies of music often argue also musical sound does communicate gender and one problem here is that for female artists who want to be seen kind of as authors of their music they had been encouraged not only in Japan but also in in the Euro-American sphere, they have been encouraged to adopt this more masculine idioms of music.

 

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L: So also I'm interested in studying whether their music incorporate some aspect that could be called feminine based on these kinds of gender studies of music. And then of course I'm also studying the public Media discourse. So, for example, since they were considered as authors as songwriters, singer-songwriters, and they had a high level of agency as people who produce their music. So I'm interested in the question whether they were still subject to expectations for women, general expectations for women in Japanese society at the time or for example if their status of an author on changed their position. So I am also studying printed publications and then some television programmes.

 

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S: Television programmes, can you elaborate on that?

 

L: Yeah, when we come to the 1970s and also the 80s basically television was one of the major or it was perhaps the major medium for disseminating and marketing popular songs. So these music shows were very popular in Japan at that time and they kind of confirmed the status of popular artists.

However, singer-songwriters - not only women but also men - wanted to emphasize their musicianship. So quite many of them declined performances on these programs because they felt that they put too much emphasis on aspects other than their music.

 

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L: And obviously, as was for male singer-songwriters, I would say that also for women singer-songwriters who declined performances on these shows it was a way for them to emphasize their own artistry and their authorship and their musicianship. But at the same time these programs were produced by men and they were directed by men. And I think this can also be interpreted as a way for women musicians to kind of avoid these stereotypical visual representations that objectified them.

 

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L: I mean for example I have interviewed quite popular singer-songwriter Okamura Takako who debuted in the early 1980s and she wanted to succeed as a musician, and she wished that the media would have emphasised her musicianship. But when she performed on these programs, basically she told me that she felt very unnatural because all the programs did was to emphasize the visual aspect that she felt that objectified her.

 

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L: So there's also these kind of dynamics going on with the television and especially women musicians.

S: I see. I'm really curious to learn that. So, there were many artists, particularly those you study, who did decline appearances on these various television shows. How do you know about if they were declining, I mean of course they were very popular and you just didn't see them then you might assume they were declining themselves but how do you know this and do you know anything more about I imagine some of their managers and their companies were not happy with that?

 

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L: Yeah, but then again we are talking about the period when many male musicians were similarly interested in just kind of emphasizing the musicianship of also those for their produce. So during this period quite many of the producers were musicians themselves. And they wanted to prioritise the wishes of the musician whose works they produced. And as for the question of how I know this, it actually was quite well-known topic in Japan at that time.

 

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L: I mean it was considered so surprising. So, for example, Matsutoe Yumi who I mentioned was one of the most well-known of these singer-songwriters. She always or very often had to answer this question in interviews why you are not appearing on television. So it was considered to be quite extraordinary that although television was such a major medium of disseminating popular music these people did not want to perform on the shows. Now this said, for example, Matsutoe Yumi she did perform on programs when they offered her a possibility to express her musical talent, meaning that these programs were typically focused on having each performer perform only one song.

 

[00:15:17]

L: But if it was possible to perform many songs and kind of express the different sides of your musicianship, then they also performed on music shows but then again these were entirely music shows from those ordinary weekly music shows.

 

S: We spoke a bit earlier and you had mentioned a quote that I found really interesting. That was Yumi, I believe, made in an interview about her backstage feminism for the fact that she felt she was performing backstage feminism perhaps. Can you elaborate on what you think that means?

 

L: Yeah that's actually - that's a very interesting quote and it's something that Yumin I mean she debuted already in 1972 but this is something she said in an interview in 1984 so it was kind of retroprospect considering the 1970s.

 

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L: But I think that the comment nicely crystallizes the thing that was going on with these female singer-songwriters in the 1970s. So I would claim in my research that they were a kind of reflection of wider social phenomena and on the other hand they threw the performances and to the song they also participated in constructing the social reality so this kind of dynamic between music and performances on a wider social sphere.

 

S: I see. With regards to the dynamics, interaction between the musicians and their performances in society at large, and with the beginning of course as you mention there is a fundamental connection betweenyour earlier work on 1930s nationalism and your current work.

 

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S: And I think that in a more basic stance you are studying music as social and cultural history. And when I learned of this, I thought I don't know very much about that, but I found it to be really novel. And you said yourself that you think there is a bit of an absence of this kind of approach. What do you think that if I am understanding you correctly, what do you think that Japanese studies is a field or study of Japan or East Asia perhaps can benefit how do you think they can benefit from your approach from like incorporating like music history, musicology?

 

[00:17:54]

L: Yeah that's a very good question. I mean am now talking specifically from the viewpoint of Japan but basically music of occupies very prominent role in Japanese culture and society. I don't think that Japanese studies as a field of area studies has really been that active in studying music and culture. And I would claim that this is the result of a long tradition of Western musicology, kind of formalist tradition that put so much emphasis on analysing music and music theory and so forth. So, I think that this has resolved that this tradition has resulted in the situation that many fields not only area studies but also other fields in social sciences and the humanities have overlooked music because of this idea that it's socially detached and requires specific set of skills to understand music.

 

[00:18:59]

L: However, I would claim that seems music is so strongly intertwined with social and cultural aspects, we should be more sensitive to understanding how music functions in the wider social sphere. So, for example, as I mention a moment ago how music both reflects and then also constructs social discourses and social values. And in this sense, I mean I don't think that music is marginal in Japanese studies because music would be marginal in Japan, its marginal in Japanese studies because it's constantly marginalised.

 

[19:36]

L: But I think that music also since it's very specific form of art, it’s a sonic form of art, it also offer a kind of point of entry to address some phenomena that are perhaps more difficult to address to other channels. To give one concrete example, I think that area studies in general and also the humanities in general have recently embraced ideas such as transnationalism and global histories and what is called decentralised histories.

 

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L: So that we have for example should not speak about cultures in simplistic terms for example the traditional dichotomy of East and West, and for example Japanese studies have been so much focused on the idea that we have Europe and America and then we have Japan and these are the two poles. So there is in area studies and in Japanese studies there has recently been a trend of disentangling this kind of paradigm.

 

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L: And I would say that music and musicians who have always defied and negotiated national and cultural boundaries offer a very interesting and very fruitful sphere to study these types of transnational aspects and decentralised aspects. And I think this concrete example of recent research trends were music could be of much more benefit to area studies that has perhaps been kind of understood thus far.

 

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S: This is very convincing; is very convincing argument and I have no doubt that you are heading into something very important. So how exactly did you arrive at this, I mean was it music first or speaking about are studies was it Japan first or is that a silly question to ask?

 

L: No no, it's actually a very good question to ask and well since I'm involved with musicology as a researcher, I just probably mention there is this very bad joke that all musicologist are just failed musicians and that's what they want to study this topic. I don't think that's true but as many other musicologists or people involved in musicology, I also have been playing various instruments since I was a kid. I played the flute and the piano and I also sang in the choir.

 

[00:21:58]

 L: And in high school I got interested in Japanese literature and through that I got interested in Japanese language and culture and that's why I decided to major Japanese studies at the university. However, music and Japanese studies at this time they were entirely separate spheres for me so I did not have any plans to combine them. However, during one course we had to write an essay related to Japanese culture and I realised that I really do not know anything about Japanese music.

 

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L: So I decided that perhaps it would be a good idea to use my previous knowledge of music and combine that with Japanese studies. And then I went to the library with the idea that I would just borrow many books and know more about Japanese music. However, I noticed there was much less material available in English than I had thought. It kind of made me interested in studying the topic itself.

 

[00:23:02]

L: Well, I just mentioned this paradigm about music being socially detached and so forth, actually this is the very same bias that I had myself. So I think that also my emphasizing music as culture and cultural history,

the importance of which I have come to really understand through my involvement with my research and Japanese music and through my involvement with musicology. So, basically I understand where that kind of paradigm derives from since I also had that paradigm inside me as well so I think that's my current researcher is also kind of subscribed to contesting this paradigm.

 

[00:23:49]

S: That's very exciting and inspiring to me that you were able to combine your various interests even from childhood and to be able to basically create a subfield for yourself that really does sound like is in need of formation. So those books that you could’t find at the library before you will be writing them yourself, that’s very exciting.

 

[00:24:16]

L: And I should probably mention that although this is a very minor field, I do not want to give the impression that I would be the only one doing it. I mean there is many people doing it before me and there are many doing it at the moment, it’s just quite marginal, it’s quite minor.

 

S: Right, I understand. Before I let you go, I want to ask you something a bit on what you said earlier about the female songwriters not having overly feminist lyrics or at least I think that's what you said I don't want to put words in your mouth. I know very little about the artist mentioned but I do remember Nakajima Miyuki. I really loved her song “Faito”. Are you familiar with that?

 

[00:25:04]

L: Yes I am.

 

S: Yeah, so that was really popular. And that I realise is from later from the earlier mid-1990. I remember it having feminist undertones to it but really emphasising it is an inspirational song but also very sad, talking about you know of girls who are ? their jobs because they don't have enough education or women in domestic violence situations or children in domestic violence situations.

 

[00:25:38]

S: So I was just wondering if and maybe because this is outside the scope of your time but have you noticed any change in some of these singer-songwriters Yumin and Nakajima Miyuki are prolific they span decades. So and I am sorry I am familiar with things of little bit later but have you noticed any differences from the 70s, the 80s, the 90s you’ve looked into this far?

 

[00:26:08]

L: Yeah I think that your observation really hits the mark there. I mean yeah when I say they did not that much incorporate these feminist messages into their songs that basically concerns the 1970s and well that's also the period I'm most familiar with but I completely agree with you. When we come to the 1990s there are due the certain social development there are much more women involved with professional life for example and I think that there are quite many songs that are much more bold in more explicitly communicating also these kinds of messages so.

 

[00:26:50]

S: So “Faito” is very good example. Another one would be Okamura Takako whom I mentioned a moment ago who had this song called “Muteki no Career Girl” or the. So it would be “Invincible Carrier Girl” in English and she was also at that time rendered a guru of working women for that reason. So I think topics have become much more explicit since the 1990s. Although these are still individual examples but still they had become much more explicit and I think that this also is something that reflects the changes that Japanese society has undergone during the past decades.

 

[00:27:37]

S: Thank you. You've inspired me to look at more of the music of the time by these artists. I'm really happy that I was able to be reminded that you’re reminding me of all these wonderful artists of this period.

 

L: That’s great.

 

S: So thank you very much. You’re currently back in Helsinki but planning to return to the University of Tokyo in the fall, is that right?

 

L: Yeah that’s correct.

 

S: OK, great. I hope that can happen smoothly and safe and healthy journey to you and best wishes on your ongoing research and am looking forward to reading more about all this in the near future.

 

[00:28:24]

L: Thank you very much.

 

S: Thank you. So that was Lasse Lehtonen, post-doctoral researcher at the University of Tokyo. And to our listeners, thank you for joining the Nordic Asia Podcast showcasing Nordic collaboration and studying Asia. Thanks again.

 

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