Transcendence and Sustainability - Transcript

Intro [00:00:02]

This is the Nordic Asia podcast.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:00:09]

Welcome to the Nordic Asia Podcast, a collaboration sharing expertise on Asia across the Nordic region. My name is Kenneth Bo Nielsen. I am a social anthropologist based in Oslo and also one of the leaders of the Norwegian Network for Asian Studies. In this episode we discuss the research project Transcendence and Sustainability Asian Visions with Global Promise, also known as Trans Sustain. The project is located at the University of Oslo's Department of Culture studies and Oriental languages, but also involves researchers based in India and China. The project explores the mobilization and recalibration of traditional Asian religio philosophical ideas in response to the global environmental crisis. And the main research question that guides it is a beautifully simple one are spiritually and religiously inspired environmental movements in Asia, largely overlooked as an essential contribution to the global goal of environmental sustainability. Joining me in this episode are Project Leader Mette Halskov Hansen, Professor of China Studies in Oslo. Amita Baviskar, Professor of environmental Studies and sociology and anthropology at Ashoka University in India, and Lu Chen, a doctoral research fellow at the University of Oslo. They will tell us more about the work of trend sustain and the different groups so far, and perhaps also give us an indication of whether the answer to the question spiritually and religiously inspired environmental movements in Asia largely overlooked as an essential contribution to the global goal of sustainability, is either a yes or a no. Mette Halskov Hansen, Trans-sustain is in many ways your idea, or at the very least, you've been central in turning this idea into a funded research project involving, I think, by the last count, 13 researchers working in four different Asian countries. How did you get this idea for this project?

Mette Halskov Hansen [00:02:16]

Well, in 2014 presented you published a book called The Crisis of Global Modernity Asian Traditions and a Sustainable Future. And he claims in that book that spiritually inspired environmental movements in Asia deserve more attention because they have an untapped potential to contribute not only to their local environments, but to the common global goal and vision of a sustainable future. And at that time we were a larger group of people from China, US and Norway, who worked together on another project, a project about the human dimensions of air pollution, a project called Airborne. And during the fieldwork we did come across some religious groups and organizations in China that were increasingly concerned with the responsibility they felt to not only help improve the health of people in need, but also the health of the planet as they saw it. And even the Chinese government at the time had started to argue strongly for its vision of a globally transcendent, so-called ecological civilization based on its own interpretation of Chinese traditional philosophy, Confucianism and Daoism especially, but also in Buddhist texts. And so at that time, we did not really have the opportunity to pursue the study of these groups. But I continue to be intrigued by your claim that, especially in Asia, you could find examples of peacefully coexisting environment visions, each of them drawing on a non worldly moral universal authority. And after some years it was not difficult to find more scholars working on India, China, Taiwan and Vietnam who were also interested in exploring in more detail the practices and potentials of such movements and to develop collectively a project together. And this is how Trans-sustain became a project.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:04:06]

So in a sense, you already started to answer the next question I was planning to post to you. This grows out of earlier research you've done in China and also reading this book by a person precisely on different Asian movements. But if we sort of look across the globe, there's no shortage of these kinds of environmental movements, environmental organizations. So I was wondering what made you zoom in more precisely on those that are religiously or spiritually inspired and why? Asia, I guess, would also be an obvious thing to talk about.

Mette Halskov Hansen [00:04:42]

I think in the climate and environmental crisis that really face all of us. I do believe that we need to turn every stone and not rely on one solution. We have to look at the broader picture. Obviously, new technology to, for instance, capture and use carbon to develop better renewable energy and so forth. It's extremely important. But we also need to look into what has called the last mile delivery of such technical and market solutions. And that is, as I understand it, how do people make sense of these changes? Are there some universal values of a good and meaningful life that can motivate to change and the movements and the activities that we explore in and sustain? Certainly not ideal examples of the perfect solution to everything, but they are examples of how people in times of crisis mobilize universal values and, for instance, promote the inherent and not the commercial or market value of nature and other species. And these movements challenge and sometimes outright reject materialist lifestyles. They cultivate ideas of changing minds and consciousness. They look for techniques of self-cultivation that can orient the individual towards larger goals and meanings of nature and environment. And I also need to add, just as Leslie has shown, that this does not, as one might think, imply, that these movements necessarily reject science. To the contrary, many of them integrate knowledge of science with this last mile approach. And then you ask why Asia? It seems that these kinds of spiritually inspired environmental movements are quite prominent and widespread in Asia, but also that many of them are perhaps understudied and maybe more importantly, they are rarely compared across national borders or explored for their potential universal impact. For sure, we could have made the project even larger. But I have studied China all my life, so expanding a project like this to India, Taiwan and Vietnam is already broad enough.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:06:45]

I think certainly both broad and ambitious. I suppose I should offer some full disclosure to the people who are listening to this episode. I'm also part of this research project, so today I actually find myself interviewing or conversing with my colleagues in this project. But in any case, I remember that just when this project was about to begin for real, the COVID pandemic arrived. This was in many ways a hard blow. No both to the movements that we were going to study, but also for us for the research project, because it was in a sense so focused on the fieldwork and producing empirically grounded knowledge about these movements. How do you think the pandemic has influenced trends sustained so far?

Mette Halskov Hansen [00:07:32]

Yeah, for sure. The impact has been very big on a project like this because sustain is really almost entirely dependent on our researchers being able to do anthropological fieldwork. And that, I always thought was one of the strengths of this project. Fortunately, some of us had already been able to do some field work and collect some data before the pandemic hit. And fortunately, we also have scholars who are based in both India and China who have to some extent been able to do some fieldwork. But obviously also for them it has been extremely difficult. I mean, as we know in India, very many people got sick, died in China. The Zero-covid policy continues with large scale lockdowns and big risks of being locked in or out of a certain area If traveling to a field site, even if you are a scholar based in China. So therefore, obviously, we are very happy to see now that both India, Vietnam and Taiwan are starting to open up more again and getting access is really crucial for the project. But I also would like to add that I always had a second agenda with this project, and that is to ensure that scholars actually get the chance to spend time in China and the other countries also outside the larger cities and certainly outside the academic circles. We just need to get more knowledge about what people think here, what they are concerned about, what they want to talk about. Also, when they are not asked to respond specific research questions and think in these times when geopolitical issues are at the top of the agenda, it is really too easy to forget or overlook that there are real people living in these places and we need to be there to get a better and more holistic understanding of their situation, their ways of acting and their views. I also think that everybody who has done long term fieldwork has experienced how perspectives and even research questions change when you are in the field and you talk to people observing what is going on in daily life and so forth. So it's very important that we can now hopefully start up again more fieldwork in these places.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:09:42]

And as you mentioned, in spite of the pandemic, some team members have been fortunate enough to actually begin their fieldwork. Amita Baviskar, could you tell us something about your contribution to this project? '

Amita Baviskar [00:09:54]

So, Kenneth, as you know, in my previous work, I have studied social movements against large dams, how indigenous people in India defend the forest river basins and pastures that they depend on for their livelihood. But they do so by highlighting the cultural identification with the land and their spiritual attachment to it, which means that by claiming their rights, they are also making a case for a different model of resource use, one that's more sustainable, more respectful of Earth's limits. But in this project, I decided that it would be more interesting to examine what has received less attention. How other Indians, those who live in cities who don't depend directly on natural resources but who buy things in the market, people who are consumers and not producers engage with this question of ecological sustainability. So in this project we are looking at how people go through what they eat and drink, assert their power to change ecologies and be more sustainable while inspired by religious beliefs. Very quickly, I'm just going to tell you the two things we are focusing on in terms of what people eat and how that's related to ecological sustainability and religious beliefs. The first is millet, you know, all sorts of grains which have been traditionally consumed in India, but which have been gradually squeezed out by the increase in the consumption of hybrid wheat and hybrid rice. And we find that people still consume millets in India. A lot of poor people do because they're easier to grow in areas where you don't have irrigation. But a lot of people also consume them through religious rituals, like, for instance, fasting, where you're not supposed to eat the main things you eat every day. There's also been a rediscovery through scientific studies of the nutritional value of millets. So we're looking at the coming together of these new scientific ideas of nutrition with traditional diets and religious sentiments attached to millets and the ways in which this might help influence a movement towards more ecological farming. And I know that you and Daniel Münster in this project are also looking at religiously inspired natural farming. Quickly, the second thing we're focusing on is milk, specifically cows. Milk. As many people know, Hindus worship the cow. It's a sacred animal. And milk products have always been an important part of Indian diets. Milk is drunk, yoghurt clarified, butter and so on. But we get our milk from buffaloes and we also get it from cows who are hybrid cows, mixed breed cows. What we find now in cities in India today, especially among elites, is a huge surge in the consumption of milk from indigenous cows. And this is very interesting because it is being promoted on the grounds that the indigenous cow, the Zebu cow, is a sacred animal on the grounds that this milk is better for your health, it gives you better immunity. And because these indigenous breeds of cow are better adapted to Indian ecological conditions. So we see the coming together of a whole new interesting set of arguments and beliefs around what is possibly leading to more sustainable agriculture.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:13:25]

It's interesting that you brought up this aspect of the novelty of these practices and movements that you were describing just now. We know that this quite a long history of spiritual relations with nature in India. Of course, more precisely, what do you think is new about these movements and practices that they are looking at in this project?

Amita Baviskar [00:13:47]

I think that beliefs anchored in religious worldviews are so deeply embedded and ingrained in people's minds that they come and are usually practiced in a customary way. We do this because we have always done this, and the chief focus of these kinds of practices has been on gaining religious merit or on spiritual awakening on how to live ethically. So what is new now is that we find that there's a greater self-consciousness which is born out of an awareness of ecological degradation and a concern for living more sustainably. And as Mette pointed out, this is strongly informed now by scientific discourse. So it means that people are modifying their spiritual practices by reimagining them outwards, by revising what spiritualism means, by revising how one must act not only towards other humans, but also towards all species and towards the earth. So what is new is that religious beliefs are being reinterpreted and they are being reoriented into new spheres of action. And in my project, what I'm looking at is the way in which one of the new arenas for this kind of spiritually informed action is the market, how people's consumption practices are changing.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:15:12]

This is fascinating, really interesting things. And we all look forward to following what comes of this project that's going to continue for quite many years. Fortunately. Lu Chen, I know that in your doctoral work that's part of this project also, among other things, you've been looking into how people in China integrate religion or ancient philosophy with environmental initiatives and activities. Tell us how does this play out on the ground in practice?

Lu Chen [00:15:40]

So in the field work there are at least two cases manifesting such integration. One is the Buddhist organization name, that city originating from Taiwan. So in collaboration with Matter, we visited the organization's headquarter and several branches in China. We talked with its volunteers, most of whom are urban middle class women in their 40s or above. We participated in their volunteer activities, including garbage recycling in urban neighborhoods, environmental education in their communal and officially designated education centers, as well as other events like reading seminars among volunteers. On the other hand, in our visits to several model villages, we found one of the button up initiatives was related to an organization named Garbage Enzymes and Filial Piety, or in Chinese shout out, reading through its websites and blogs, said that it was inspired by a Thai female doctor who started making enzymes from kitchen waste to promote organic agriculture. The Chinese organizer linked enzyme to the confusion moral code of filial piety, arguing that Mother Earth be approached by human beings with the basic morality of filial piety. Fermentation will purify our environment. Filial piety will purify our souls. As it said on its website, on the ground, the woman who returned to a native village to start the environmental initiative was inspired by the operation of the organization. She received technical guidance and started the campaign in her own village in collaboration with village cadres. So we found that both these volunteers from city and the local woman leader are eager to collaborate with the government for volunteers. They take the initiatives to appropriate official policies and a space for environmental education to enhance their legitimacy and promote moralities and values other than environmental science to raise public awareness and change lifestyles. For the woman. Leadership collaborates closely with village cadres to work out the initiatives and to secure official funding and political support later on. But she also invites people from the organization to spread relevant practices and products among villagers.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:18:18]

You mentioned now quite a few times the role of these local women leaders. And one thing that struck me in your work so far is that actually so many women are engaged in these projects that you're looking at, incidentally, something that's in a sense quite similar in the context of India as well. What explains this significant involvement of women in forms of environmental activism that have this clear religious or one might say ancient philosophy orientation?

Lu Chen [00:18:49]

Yeah, for different cases, they are different reasons, but they also share some structure explanation. So in the case of CDC, around 70% of its volunteers are women. The organization was founded by a noun named AGM with followers consisting mainly of housewives. In the case of the woman leader, the retired female urban resident who went back to her village to start the environmental campaign. She worked closely with village cadres, especially the one in charge of women's affairs. So the gender, the division of housework, especially in terms of domestic waste, shaped the environmental activities to focus on garbage recycling in city. This also rings true in the gender roles in patriarchal governments, including down to the grassroots levels of the village committees. The women's director, the one in charge of women's affairs, is assigned with the last significant roles, including domestic waste management. And I'm making the lines on kitchen waste. In addition, the female women's director works closely with female villagers, and she is able to mobilize fellow female villagers who have been mainly undertaking the domestic waste treatment labor. However, with the rising political attention to environmental issues, especially under the official ideology of ecological civilization, the original domestic and gender labor has become a political target and a goal for the local governments to enforce for performance evaluation. In that way, women's environmental activism informs of domestic waste management and education can become the leverage for these women to approach public funding and political support. Though still contained in the patriarchal structure.

Amita Baviskar [00:20:48]

If I may add to what Lu Chen has just said, very similar things. The patriarchal division of labor is also very important in India because women are, besides being in charge of domestic work, also supposed to be upholders of the family or the household spiritual health, which means that they are in charge of producing food, producing in the sense of processing food through preparing and cooking, which is why the activities that I'm looking at in terms of milk and millets production feature women very strongly, but also because they're enabled to present what they do as promoting the spiritual health of their family. The other thing about spiritual and religious practices is that it allows women a place and a voice in public affairs from which they have traditionally been excluded. So like Lu Chen said, in the Indian case, two women are able to participate in the public sphere of action, collective action, if they can show that they're doing it motivated by religious beliefs with the aim of promoting the welfare of society as a whole. So that kind of legitimacy becomes a way to manoeuvre and to expand the influence that women have on matters from which they have traditionally been left out.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:22:13]

Before we wrap up this episode, there's one thing that I really want to hear your response to, and this is not a thing that's unique for this project, but rather sort of a typical critical question that grounded ethnographic studies like the ones you're doing are confronted with, namely, does it scale? Or to put it slightly differently. These findings that the individual case studies produce, will they be of any relevance in other contexts? Lu And Amita, what's your view on these things? Will the projects like the ones you're looking at, have a real impact in leading us towards greater sustainability?

Lu Chen [00:22:53]

For these two religious or spirituality inspired organizations. In both cases, they have manifested their aims and practices to scale, and it is even an international organization with its organizing forms and rules to be modeled after its branches across the world. In terms of the model village with the female urban returnee, it has been promoted actively by the local government and is recently planned by the district government to be an environmental education base, attracting the national attention. The town Government supports the replication in neighbouring villages, which however plays out differently in different villages. Since this is a qualitative study, as you also said and may use some words from people in the field, one such volunteer comments on her years long volunteer experience in environmental education. She finds the community based efforts most effective and lasting. Although she took the initiative to appropriate the official space to deliver environmental education, which expanded the population flow to such centres. She later retreated to communal centres. She was uncertain, not optimistic towards the effects of one lecture or one visit, though reaching a wider population. But on the other hand, as I touched upon earlier in collaborations with the local government, these women volunteers also had to comply with the intervention of the government. Thus, depending on particular environmental issues, local sociopolitical context, waxing and waning political attentions as well as the subjectivities of the people involved. They are different environmental activism to unfold on the ground.

Amita Baviskar [00:24:54]

I think the question of scale is an interesting one, but it can be interpreted in two ways. One way is of the idea of scale is to think of small things becoming big. But think what's much more interesting is to realize that lots of little things can add up to something big. And given that we have training in anthropology, in sociology, we're much more interested in looking at the ways in which what are global forces and processes get in some way localized. And that local is always particular. But it will also be heterogeneous. So what we find in a particular context in India or in China might not directly translate to something that's global, but it will certainly speak to global processes. And in the case of the studies that I'm doing, global processes not only like capitalist commodity production, but also things like global environment discourses and think the kinds of challenges that we face are not perhaps so much in terms of whether they can scale up or not, but in terms of the contradictions and inconsistencies that exist within some of these movements. As Lucienne said, they're working with existing social hierarchies like patriarchy or caste or class or race. The other problem is that often by drawing on long standing religious beliefs, they might end up affirming or reinforcing what are already quite regressive ideas. And therefore, we have to be very careful to look at the ways in which these sorts of religious beliefs are not only making claims to being more ecologically sustainable, but are also paying attention to the very important question of social justice without which believe sustainability is not enough.

Kenneth Bo Nielsen [00:26:51]

Amita Baviskar, Lu Chen and Mette Halskov Hansen. Thank you all so much for shedding light on the research and current findings of transcendence and sustainability. Asian Visions with Global Promise. We look forward to being part of, but also following your work over the years that lie ahead, and not least to learning more about the extent to which these movements that you all study can make an essential contribution to the global goal of environmental sustainability. My name is Kenneth o Nielsen and thank you for joining the Nordic Asia podcast showcasing Nordic collaboration in studying Asia.

Speaker 1 [00:27:29]

You have been listening to the Nordic Asia podcast